Sanal Edemaruku: Paying the price for skeptical activism

Abhijit: This is another fantastic interview that I've lined up for you. And with somebody very special who is an essential, integral part of the journey of rationalism and scepticism in India. he doesn't live in India any longer, but he is still the founder and the main driving force behind Rationalists International.

Abhijit: hey everybody. Welcome back to Rationable Interviews.

Sanal or Mr. Edamaruku?

Sanal Edamaruku: Sanal, you can call me Sanal.

Abhijit: Okay, Sanal it is! Welcome finally to Rationalist, sorry, I'm almost counting myself as a part of your organization now.

I want to be a part of it for sure but welcome to Rationable Interviews. So where are you based right now? You don't have to give any specific location, but where are you based at this point?

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah I live in Finland now. For the last 10 years.

I live in Finland. Based in Finland. I travel across and I keep on doing what I've been doing. Appearing on television or giving podcasts or interviews or online meetings and managing the Indian Rationalist Association as well as the Rationalist International, comparatively in a safer zone.

Abhijit: Definitely. So I hear you went on voluntary exile to Finland. So, how did that happen? How did that work out? This is a story I know to some extent, but I want you to go into all the details that you can because this is a very important story that we should all know about.

Sanal Edamaruku: I think, I don't know whether one can call my moving to Finland as an exile.

That's how most of the media report, like BBC and CNN had all said that it's a self-imposed exile. But it could be also. I still work in India, but not physically. I'm not there. I have been active on Indian television. I've been active on the Indian public scene for several decades now. We have been having meetings in universities and in public places and organizing things and all. Once these televisions opened up back in the late 1990s, instead of moving from meeting place to meeting place, we moved to television studios to television studios and started appearing everywhere in the national media, virtually all national television channels I've been on, something like 150 to 200 television appearances per year. That was the kind of television program I've been doing. Challenging and, I mean, debunking – if you want to call it that way – most of what was presented in the Indian media as a miracle or paranormal activities or religious bigotry or everything. I've been active on television and that has provoked a lot of people. But generally, I use a very civilized language. I don't use any language of hatred or anything that, it was very difficult to tackle or corner me if anybody wanted to do that.

And I was so active on television, and this has been a problem for a lot of people. But, finally, they could corner me on one point. That was in 2012. Most of the time, as India is mainly a Hindu-majority country, most of the supernatural claims or miracle claims come from the Hindu side.

I've been regularly active against all these gurus and their claims. But, this time, in Mumbai in 2012, there was a claim in a Mumbai Church that the statue of Jesus there is weeping.

Abhijit: Ah, yes.

Sanal Edamaruku: I mean, like Mary weeping, that's known everywhere. I mean that such claims are there. And it was exposed and explained everywhere, but this was a very special case. This was a statue standing on a wall in front of the church. And water was dripping, but not one or two drips. It was dripping down and people were collecting the droplets in bottles from the feet, and a lot of water. It was just keeping on coming.

Abhijit: Which church was this again?

Sanal Edamaruku: That was Vile Parle Catholic Church in the Mumbai.

Abhijit: Ah, okay.

Sanal Edamaruku: I lived in Delhi at that time and as most of these kinds of claims would come on television, I would be asked to comment on that. And I was, naturally, asked to comment on that. I was sitting in the Delhi studio and the miracle was shown. The reporters were there and they've been showing it. It looked like something very fishy and strange. That was my first impression, seeing the clippings. Water was dripping down continuously, and people were collecting.

And then the local people have been claiming, very interesting, that was also coming in the television, that somebody who had cancer was suddenly been cured. And somebody had a blur in his vision and he could see now, ailments were getting cured. And also there was a mention in the TV report that they have applied for a miracle status in the Vatican.

So, in a Catholic church, to get it established as a pilgrimage place, they have to formally get approval from the Vatican, and they have applied for it. And I looked at the background and I found that similar claims were made in some of the churches also in Mumbai. They applied for miracle status, but some of it was not sanctioned at that time because there was some public criticism or opposition meantime it stopped, whatever it was.

So I said, come on, this is a simple thing. A statue cannot cry. It's common sense. If you believe this, you can believe anything. But it's just common sense. It's no scientific explanation required that the statue was not crying. It could be some water trap somewhere. Maybe it has a crack on his head and some rainwater has fallen in. Maybe they have manipulated something. I cannot say what it is by sitting in Delhi. But the church authorities, if they have an open mind, instead of calling it in miracle, they should just apply their critical mindset, go and look around and try to see what it was.

Abhijit: Exactly.

Sanal Edamaruku: That's what I suggested.

Abhijit: Was this clear water that was coming out of the eyes as tears?

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah. The focus was given to the feet. Water was dripping from the feet.

Abhijit: Okay.

Sanal Edamaruku: That was how it was. So, one could not see the eyes because it's a tall statue, something like a five, six feet tall statue.

Abhijit: I see.

Sanal Edamaruku: And around straight to our sight, one can see feet and feet water was dripping. There is no other source can see. There was a kind of a heated argument. They took it very seriously and they said that, come on, this is a real miracle and we all are experiencing it.

The first person who experienced it was not even a Christian, but a Hindu. I said that doesn't make any difference. Because people who want to believe, they would believe no matter where it is and who it is. So, why don't you just try to study it instead of just blindly taking it as a miracle?

So they said, come on, this is a miracle, and if you want, you are telling about evidence for everything, and you are sitting in Delhi and saying that it's not a miracle. Why don't you come and study the whole thing? And if it's not a miracle, explain it. That's an open, friendly challenge. I said, if you permit that I can come there and I can verify it, and if your people won't attack me for studying it, then I can come over there. I don't have any prejudice, but you can also probably find it. And it ended there because I clearly said that, look there for a statue, there are no tear glands and humans excrete a lot of water by sweating, I mean by crying, by saliva, urination, lot of things. But a statue would not do that. It's very simple. Ask a little child and he would understand it. When you're blinded by your belief, you think that it's a miracle. They invited me; that was on the 3rd of March.

I remember all these dates because of it this was very important in my life. Seven days later, they suggested that I could go to Mumbai and they could personally verify it. And a date was fixed for 10th of March 2012. I took a friend along with me who's a civil engineer. I thought, if I could not understand what was happening, this is a cement statue and one may be able to understand it better. I should get a little expert support, I thought, together we have gone. And once I got there, it was very interesting. I'm narrating the story because it's very interesting in a way how it all happened.

When I reached there. The first thing that I noticed was, some 200 to 300 people were standing in front of the statue and the prayer was going on. The priest was reading from the Bible about the miracles of Jesus. And then people were, kneeling. And then they're standing up. After the prayer, then I waited outside this scene, and after the prayer, somebody distributed this water to people and took it in their palms. Many people immediately lick it. And some droplets are given to everybody. People lick it and drink it. And it was brought to me also without noticing who I was. I did not take it in my hand. But I collected it in a small vessel, which I had. My friend immediately sent it for a chemical examination. That was the first way of handling this thing. So after that I didn't go alone, I went with the television crew. I talked to TV Nine, one of the biggest channels in Mumbai.

And the TV crew was with me. And They have been recording the whole thing and then the priest comes to me and after the prayer, I said, I am Sanal. I came because of your invitation and you have given me this time. The priest comes to me and says that they give me immediately a small hammer.

I didn't take it, but I said, "Why? Why do you give me this hammer?", "You said there could be water trapped inside". I said, "That was one of the possibilities that I suggested". "Oh, okay." His position was if it was served water trapped inside, you can smash the statue and see if there was any water inside. I immediately understood what was the intention.

Imagine a moment I take this hammer in my hands. A hundred photographs would be taken and if I smash it somewhere or crack or even touch it, I will be seen immediately as a crazy person smashing their statue. And that's why they were making several possibilities to trap me down.

Then somebody said, "You want to dig down the bottom? You can even dig down". Then what happens? It'll fall down. Yes. So, somebody brings a pick axe. I said, "No, I don't want anything". So instead, without touching anywhere, I just looked at the whole thing. One of the first things that I noticed, probably as you asked rightly, the water perhaps was not coming from the eyes, because it looked dry. That's a primary observation I didn't touch or anything. Okay. When I just, this is touching a wall. A half wall on the outskirts of the church. I go inside and there I found a very quickly one small thing. Just behind the statue on the wall, there is fresh algae, fresh green algae growing. And that looked fresh, but it was going towards one side, one direction and where it ends, I went up to a corner of the wall and it ends there. It's, It's common sense to understand that apparently, some water source was there. And water is coming there. It's not from one or two days. Occasionally rain was there. And this water presence has given a possibility to grow this green-coloured fungus growing there. So I went to the possible source place, the corner. And then I found that there was a drainage line, an open drainage line covered with the stones, I mean cut stones, used for that.

And I, I didn't have even a glass or anything, but out of curiosity, I just opened it. There was a stinking smell all around. It was a drainage line coming from the toilet.

Abhijit: Oh. And ouch.

Sanal Edamaruku: And this was a point where this would go to the city line. Outside is the city line. And this was the connecting point where it'll be draining down to the city line. But there was a blockage, so the water was blocked there. And it has no way to go. Naturally, when water is blocked and it has no way to go, it'll go through small pores anywhere. Capillary action is a simple thing. And it went through the cemented wall. Wherever it could possibly reach, it has tried to reach, but it found one outlet. That was the statue outside. On the statue, there was a nail on the feet. Jesus, the statue, means, there are, five holy wounds.

Abhijit: Yeah

Sanal Edamaruku: The nails were on, on the feet and the hands, and this nail above the feet, there was a hole, and the water climbed through this, and since there was a hole, apparently I thought water could be draining down from there. That was my primary observation. But how would I confirm it? I mean, Cleaned my hand and went outside, and then I touched above the nail line. My assumption was correct. It was completely dry. From the nail down water was dripping. It was not coming from the eyes but from the nail on the feet.

Abhijit: Ah.

Sanal Edamaruku: And it was actually the clogged toilet drainage water. And that was what they have been serving to people as holy water. Later I learned that there was diarrhoea in the whole area.

Abhijit: Oh my God. Oh, that's disgusting.

Sanal Edamaruku: This was it. But I, it was very hard. I mean, It looked, very simple and a little humorous at that time. But I understood the potential danger at that moment because I could not say publicly, there was a crowd, a devout crowd, waiting outside. Very curious. Because everybody knew, my criticism. People knew that I was coming, and there could be I mean, some normal people, but there could be some angry, fanatic people also amongst them.

So my expectation was correct. When I came out, they said, "What did you find? I said I did not find anything. I have to, I've made some observations. I have to I've taken a lot of photographs. I've taken small videos, and I have seen the whole thing and like, because already I knew what was happening.

I only wanted to get a confirmation from the chemical analysis of the water. Also, that was a reconfirmation of my observation. So they said I should explain it there and then otherwise I would not be allowed to go. And that was this stressing point that I would not be allowed to go from there. I smelt danger and then I looked around and all the people were sitting on chairs there, but I immediately located 2, 3, 4 people back holding plastic chairs in their hands, which means they were the people to attack me the moment I said something, So I said, I don't have to say anything. I will just go now. No, you're not allowed to go there. Stop me. It was a plan to invite me to get me into a trap there. That was the plan.

That is why the hammer was brought, and that was why the pick axe was brought and then everything was pre-planned. So I said uh, okay, I should explain to the crowd what I have seen. I should not speak about something else later on television. Okay. I thought I should use this opportunity. I thought of Mark Anthony, how one could twist a speech at one point and I started speaking to these people.

It was a little, tricky. I first explained that according to your belief, miracles happen, but all claims are not accepted by the Vatican. It wants a kind of verification and there should be devil's advocate. And only after that, they would approve a miracle, which means all claims are not miracles, even according to your faith.

Abhijit: Indeed.

Sanal Edamaruku: And also many times the claims that are coming from different sources without understanding what it is, could not be a miracle. Then I went and explained the one miracle in Northern India in Himachal Pradesh, where fire was coming from water for a long time. Long time during the Mughal Empire's time, it was seen as a devil, by some people. Some people found it as a holy thing. Now we know that this is an inflammable natural gas getting released, but still, she is worshipped as a goddess.

Abhijit: Agni

Sanal Edamaruku: Jwalamukhi it's a goddess and people are, there's a pilgrimage there. I ask people, do we know about this story? But it's not a miracle, we all know, but for many people, it's a miracle. So then another example, I took examples from other cultures and other religions. I took the example of another thing in Mumbai, some years back there was seawater turning sweet. Again I have been there studying the whole thing and found that it was, a city drainage going into the water and water currents brought it and that was near a mosque and they thought it was a miracle of Allah but it was not. Now everyone knows that it was not. So people, now I found the elder ladies and all, they're shaking head and I mean in approval. And then I also spoke about the Indian constitution where we have to have a spirit of inquiry and spirit of reform and that's the duty of everybody.

I started speaking then the priest was getting annoyed and unhappy and he said enough you can go now. Cause he didn't want me to continue this speech. But that was a moment. I just almost ran to the car, sat there and escaped from there. But that was not planned by them. They wanted me to be trapped there and once I moved from there I understood that there could be a danger. But the television channels were very happy cause they got enough fine clippings. They said we are going to have a big show in the evening. We would invite the representatives of the church also. And you could explain what you found.

I said, wonderful. Prime Time, and in Mumbai. And that was perhaps seen by a lot of people. And I was given 10 minutes to explain what I found. I explained the whole thing with pictures and small images and everything that I had. And then a debate for 30 minutes with the four representatives or five representatives from the church on one side, and I alone on the other side.

And the church the priests have come and their lawyer, very interestingly, a Supreme Court lawyer on behalf of the church joins. It was a very interesting event. But the moment we all sat in one room, and at the moment I said “As I explained, this was not a miracle, but this was drainage water. But it's not your mistake”, I said, but at that moment, one of these people tried to jump on me to attack me physically. It was difficult to continue this program. So then I was taken to another room. The debate continues. It shows that we all were sitting, in different windows, but I alone was sitting in this loaned room so that, the, I, they were, they won't attack me. I hadn't experienced such a thing on television ever before. And they were so furious!

Abhijit: before Goswami turned up on TV

Sanal Edamaruku: But even Arnab Goswami, physical attacks won't be there. I was sitting where his programs also, many times, of course, he has a position and he argues for that. And you can counter it also.

Abhijit: Yeah.

Sanal Edamaruku: But this was different. This was a physical attack then the bishop called to the channel and I said, miracles do not happen.

If you don't understand, you say it's a miracle. I would say rather I don't understand. Then I try to study it. If I understand, I will explain it. Otherwise, say that this is a phenomenon we are yet to understand. That's how we should see it. That's my position, so the bishop wanted to stop the program and he called the television channel and asked them to stop it.

The channel was courageous enough and they said, no, we cannot stop the program, but you could join the program and counter what he said. Fair enough. The bishop agreed. The auxiliary Bishop of Mumbai joins the program. So it becomes a very different level of discussion. And so he took it of course, till he came, all these people claim that it was a miracle. I said, “Water was climbing up the wall.” “No water won't climb up, it'll go down only. That's the law of gravity. Gravitation is a law of God and water goes down only, never goes up.” “Okay,” I said, “if somebody has this child who studies in the fourth standard, there is a lesson on capillary action – how plants are getting water”. All these kinds of things I tried to explain. So, the bishop joined the program and he took a very different position. He said this could be explained by physics. I said, fair enough. But miracles would happen.

Abhijit: Ah,

Sanal Edamaruku: I said there is a serious dispute on that point.

I would not say that miracles would happen. “There are many things that you don't understand”, he said immediately. So there should be a scientific attitude, a scientific approach to the whole thing. The bishop immediately twisted the whole thing. He said, “In fact, what is your right to speak about science? We should speak about science as Catholic church because we are responsible for the scientific growth in Europe and science has developed because of our patronage.”

That was his statement. This was a very interesting program. I don't know whether the whole thing is available on video, but part of it is on YouTube. But he asked me, Why are you laughing?” I asked him whether he believed in exorcism. He said he would not believe in such things. I said, “Unfortunately, your pope believes. The Pope had a meeting of Exorcist priests in Poland some months back”. He said, “That's a lie.” I said, “Come on. There was a report in the New York Times and I was in Poland immediately after that, and I know about it and I know the first-hand information in front of me. Your church believes in exorcism. There are experts for exorcism”. “Okay”, he said, “for an argument, I will accept that. In fact, that is true also.” Then I said “What is happening in an exorcism? You're invoking the spirit of dead people, right?” “Yeah. That's the belief of exorcism.”

So the conversation was going in a very different way. Then I said, “Here's the point I want: if a church believes in exorcism, I would like your help. Get two witnesses to counter your argument about how you supported science”. He said, “What exactly are you saying? Come to the point.” I said very clearly “I don't believe in spirits, but since you believe in spirits and you can invoke spirits, two spirits I want you to invoke are of Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno. Let them vouch for me here, whether you promoted science or persecuted scientists.”

That was a little long way to reach there. But the cameraman understood the joke and other people in this studio understood. They all started laughing. The bishop did not get it initially, but after a minute he understood. Then he was so furious and he walked off the program so angrily and he said, you're insulting the Christian faith and you are, I mean, very hard words. And he goes, and that turned everything. And I could not come out of the studio after that. When the program was over the head of the channel invited me for dinner. I said, “Come on, I have a plan for eating outside.” “No, you cannot go outside. There are people with staff and sticks waiting outside for you.”

Abhijit: Whoa Wow. Literal witch-hunt.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah. And I said, “How, what?” This studio is not in the main city also, it's far away. They're supposed to be angry Catholics attacking you. They want to kill you outside. They're waiting there. It looks strange. It's not, nobody knows even where the channel's actual studio would be, and it's not in the main city, and then some of the cameramen came and said, “Look, I know the people outside.” I peeped over the wall. And they found that some of them were known goons in the city. They're beating boys. You pay money, and they go and beat people. And they were brought in advance by the church. So they're waiting for you, pretending to be Catholics going to attack me.

And we waited two, three hours inside. They were not leaving. They're just waiting. There was only one gate. So later they opened a backside, a small what you call, like a gate, which is meant for garbage taking and all. I came out and a taxi was waiting for me I went to my portal hotel and they changed my flight time and left for Delhi one or two hours earlier.

I came to know that, my flight was known and people were waiting for me at the airport also, but before that I could leave. That was taken that seriously. And the next day there were reports that there were cases filed against me in so many police stations for blasphemy, not 1, but 27 complaints in different police stations in different parts of Maharashtra. This means if I could come out from one arrest another case is waiting for me. And this law is very interesting. Article 2 95 A in the Indian penal code

Abhijit: Yeah.

Sanal Edamaruku: Came from during the British time, which says that a person with malicious intention, if he hurt the religious sentiments of somebody, can be arrested. It is cognizable and non-bailable.

Abhijit: and that's still there today.

Sanal Edamaruku: This law is still there. And it does not need judicial interference to arrest a person. You don't have to make a report and get the sanction of the courts to arrest a person. But the police officer, if he pleases, can arrest the person and keep him in his custody for up to six months and can get an extension also.

And it's a very hard law. This was used once against Periyar EV Ramasamy in the 1960s. And the case was registered and he came out of it. That's another story. But anyway, I decided to fight this case. I mean, I thought it was a great opportunity because this law should go

Abhijit: Absolutely.

Sanal Edamaruku: One of the possibilities is that, if you have any law, the British law of the criminal laws in India. That's very old. In 1857, they made these laws and they got some amendments and all, but when the Indian Constitution came in 1950, India did not make a new criminal law. Indian penal code that existed was adopted by the new government. At that time, it was an established system. And one agreement was that if any law becomes violative of the fundamental rights, that law becomes null and void. So with that guarantee, this was taken as India's criminal law. So back in the 1960s, somebody made a public interest litigation against this case, but that was not a well-prepared case and that was dismissed by the Supreme Court. So there is no possibility to go for another public interest litigation but if I am a victim of this law, then I can challenge it and probably I'll win and stop this law. That was my point. So we made a defence committee and set of lawyers, got prepared, and we made an international campaign and collected all the material on how this law is getting misused. But that did not end there. I had physical threats. I was advised by the police to be careful because I could be attacked, I could be intimidated by all these kinds of things. And some people in the home ministry were helping me. They got intelligence information that since I was in Delhi, the Mumbai police could come and arrest me in Delhi without the Metropolitan magistrate's permission.

Therefore, the bishop wants me to be abducted from Delhi to Mumbai. So they paid the Underground Mafia for that. So therefore I should be careful. That's what I was asked. So I moved from my home and stayed in some friend's house, but still, I appeared on television, spoke about this case, and made it public.

And all the media started reporting the whole thing. And I said I'm going to face this case if I'm not killed. And so the Indian media started taking it very seriously. CNN-IBN reported and the print media – Times of India, Hindustan Times. Anyway, everybody reported and then slowly it caught up in the international media, wall Street Journal, CNN and the New York Times, and everywhere, it's the BBC, everywhere it started appearing. So then I got another information again from the government sources only that one of the, then I was considering the possibility of going to Mumbai to a court and get arrested. Then I'm straight with the court, not with the police. So this was being planned, and then I got a telephone call, strangely, at midnight.

I'm not at home. I'm staying in a secret place too, for my safety. I get a telephone call on my mobile phone at 12 o'clock at night, and the person introduces himself as the station house officer, SHO of the Vile Parle police station. I said, “Why don't you call from a landline during the day, not from a mobile phone at midnight?” He said, “I am the police officer. I want to talk to you right now.” I said, “Okay, come on. What do you want?” “So, I have a solution for you. I know that you're running for your life, and that will not end up very peacefully because finally, you will come to my hands. We have charged the case already.” I said, “How do you charge the case without taking my statement?” “I have absolute right by the law. Even I can claim that for your safety, I want to arrest you, but once you are with me, I will put you in prison. And one night is enough. I'll get somebody alone with you, smash your head by a crazy person and we'll take care of him. Or anyway, when you come to me, I'll break both your legs and hands because you tried to escape from the police.” I said, “What are you speaking? We are in a civilized country. And you are speaking to a person who is active in the media, publicly known, and the leader of a movement. And how do you handle the common people?” “See, very simple. I want all these things. These are all waiting for you. But there is a solution. You make an apology to the bishop, and everything will be over. You have a week. Apologize to the bishop, and then the cases are over.”

So I thought I should make it public.

I made it public with the telephone number and yes, it was true, that was the number of the police officer. BBC had gone and tried to meet this guy. And he said I want to arrest him. And that's what I said is not something I would know I would discuss with you. That is a BBC radio report, also the BBC came all the way to meet this police officer and talk to him. Anyway, so I decided not to go to the police and then meantime, on the internet, some web groups started discussing how to get me eliminated. Somebody should kill me. Or if I go to a court, a mob should attack me and I should not reach the court. So I spoke about it publicly that this is what they're discussing. Then it disappeared. So I was very careful at that time, but I decided to speak to the media. AFP contacted me and I gave them an interview at my secret hiding place. And they published it worldwide. So BBC took it up, CNN took it up.

Then came a situation that my hiding place was not safe. That was even told by police that they knew where you were hiding. Because we are afraid that you'll get attacked there. So then I moved to the Jawahar Lal Nehru University where I had my research. With the help of a dean, I got into a hostel room with some students supporting me and I stayed there.

So from there, I gave interviews to different journalists and I was very active. And then a situation came that could be very dangerous. Any moment anything could happen to me. I thought I should go away from India for a couple of months, a couple of weeks so that the dust settles down.

And that was my plan. So I had a lecture tour in July in Poland. Ah, I thought that I should go some months early outside India, stay outside, go and have this lecture tour and meantime everything to be ready. And then I come back. That was the plan.

Abhijit: What were you teaching in JNU and what was your field?

Sanal Edamaruku: I studied political science and international relations. That is where my research is, where my academic field was international relations. My research was on the theocratic influence of Pakistan's foreign policy with a special reference to India.

Abhijit: Oh! Okay. That's a risky business by itself. So, yeah, let's continue with the story.

Sanal Edamaruku: And then I yeah tried to talk to friends out outside India, where to go. Immediately, I wrote to the Centre for Inquiry to Paul Kutz. I wrote to a friend in Finland who was the Finnish Humanist Union president and was my old friend. For 25 years we have been very close friends, and he used to come to Delhi and stayed at my place and I came to Finland, I stayed at his place. Then I wrote to another friend in London, Robert Eagle, who made a documentary about me for Channel Four. So the first reply came from London. He said, “Come over to London. You could stay here, and when things are safe, you can go back. My house is open for you.” On the third floor, whenever I go, I used to stay there. And he sends an invitation immediately. My daughter was working in the British High Commission. My visas were all expired and I have to take fresh visas. So it would take five to seven days to get a British visa. Because it has to go through a different process. It was outsourced.

So then came a letter from the Center for Inquiry, offering me a teaching profession at the Center for Inquiry because that can be an official reason to teach there. Of course, that was being discussed earlier also. With these two options here in my hand then came a call from Pekka who was education secretary here. He said “Are you still alive? That was the question. I said yes, I'm still here then cause the reports were all coming in Finnish newspapers everywhere in the world at that time.

And so then he said Can you travel up to the Finnish embassy? He asked, I said yes. Possible. He said “Today is Friday. They will close at 12 o'clock. Now it's 11 o'clock for you in India. Can you reach there before 12 o'clock?” I said, “Yes possible.” So he said, “I am driving to somebody very closely connected to the foreign ministry and you just go there and file an application for a Travel two Visa meeting me.”

I said, how would it work like that? He said, just do it. That's what he said. I took a friend along with me and I drove to the Finnish Embassy it was 10 minutes to 12 o'clock and I parked the car in front of the gate. I still remember the car was towed away later cause it was not parked even properly.

I rushed inside and told them that I had to file an application for a visa. The lady on the counter said, “Look, can you do it on Monday? Because I've taken a leave because my son's birthday is today and I have to go there. So calls are coming from Finland for your visa.” So I said, “It's important, you'll know it later.”

So I put in the application and maybe two minutes before 12 o'clock, I gave it inside. To my surprise, after 30 minutes I get the Visa.

Abhijit: Wow.

Sanal Edamaruku: And so Pekka was still sitting with the, I think he was sitting with the foreign minister or something like that. I got the visa and the next day morning I flew to Finland.

I could not take any clothes from my home or anything because I knew that could not go to my home. After all, there could be an assassin waiting for me. That was the situation that I, and all my dear people were thinking that I would be killed in some days. That was the general feeling.

And I could not go and say goodbye to my children, for example, because that would be a dangerous place. Somebody would be waiting for me nearby. I took two close friends, bought a couple of jeans and some basics, and went to the airport late in the night. And it was all very easy there, there was no complication.

Pekka sent even a ticket. I didn't have to even go for a ticket. He was so friendly, such a great friend. And so everything was ready morning, 10 o'clock, I think 10 o'clock the flight would begin. I was inside at night, nine o'clock. Once sitting in the flight, I sent a text message to James Randi.

Because he was campaigning for me so vehemently. Wrote at least a dozen articles in support of myself and called for support from everybody and people like Richard Dawkins and James Randi I should be ever thankful in my life because they have been really supporting me. And Richard Dawkins even initiated, became the first sign of a campaign started by the British Rationalist Association, Publishers of New Humanist, in support of me.

And then, Richard was the first person who signed it. And it was a huge campaign. It got thousands and thousands of people signing every day. It was selling like anything. But I texted James Randi I'm safe for this moment, and I'm going to Finland. I'm on the flight in a few seconds, and I'll be stopping the phone.

So, I could not write that he should keep this information safe or should not say it publicly, but he was overwhelmed and with happiness, I closed the phone. When I reached Finland, six hours later, the whole media was waiting for me there. Do you know what happened? James Randi, out of his happiness, sent out an immediate article: Sanal is Safe.

Because there were reports that Sanal was running for his life. In Canada, there was a report that Sanal was running for his life and what happened to him is not known. So he's a Canadian, and living in the United States. And he was worried about that. He said, Sanal is safe and he's going to Finland. He has sent me a text from the aeroplane.

And that was taken by a lot of people and sent out by other people. And it was all around in the Twitter. And next day I was interviewed by Finnish television. And I was taken very seriously and meetings were there to explain the whole thing here. And I came with a return ticket.

The return ticket was extended two times. And I went to Poland and gave my lectures and came back to Finland again. And I planned to go two times. The second time when I was planning to go after a discussion with one of my closest friends who is no more, Narendra Dabholkar, Mumbai,

Abhijit: yes, of course, we know him

Sanal Edamaruku: he plan, he planned my visit to Mumbai. He said we'll make a human wall around you. You have a lot of people and you go to court directly and we address the case. I agreed. After this conversation, I even wrote about that I go to India soon. Four days later I got the report that he was shot dead.

Abhijit: Oh.

Sanal Edamaruku: In Mumbai streets.

Abhijit: Oh, this was so closely related to this whole incident.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah. Yeah. So I cancelled my ticket again. And okay. I took a resident permit in Finland because I had changed a teaching assignment I took along with the Finnish education department in the UNESCO-affiliated institutions. And I registered here as a person working and I remained in Finland.

So it's a long story, but it cannot be shortened I don’t know.

Abhijit: No, all these details are absolutely necessary. You have been through so much and all for fighting for a reason. I, in fact, I’m very proud and happy to be able to say that I shook James Randi's hand and thanked him for his work when I went to the CSICon in Vegas in 2018.

Sanal Edamaruku: Oh.

Abhijit: And soon after that he passed away, unfortunately.

Sanal Edamaruku: that was the last one.

Abhijit: Yeah, exactly. He was a force to be reckoned with

Sanal Edamaruku: In 2013, the next year after I reached here, James invited me to the CSICon conference in Las Vegas, and I was there. And that is, again, another thing that I will never forget.

I wrote also about his support, calling me. James Randi is my hero. But he was so supportive. When I was speaking at his conference, he introduced me to the audience as follows: he said, “Sanal calls me his hero, but if you ask me who is my hero, and that is Sanal”, he said, and the audience stood up and clapped.

And that was the moment I felt was the biggest recognition that I got.

Abhijit: Absolutely. And you deserved every bit of it. You've literally, put your life on the line for reason, basically. I first heard of you, I think on the Thinking Atheist podcast, which is by Seth Andrews. And then there were there have been many other incidences. In fact, I was at the FFRF, which is the Freedom from Religion Foundation. Just this last October, which is in Texas.

Sanal Edamaruku: Interestingly Dan Barker is coming to Finland. We have a small hybrid seminar on the 8th of April. Dan is coming and speaking here.

Abhijit: Oh, lovely. I met him as well. And so many other people who have not only heard of you but who also speak of you fondly and about everything that you've done.

So, but where did your where did you, this journey towards reason and becoming an activist, where did that start?

Sanal Edamaruku: I was lucky that I was born to non-religious parents. But that was not a reason for becoming an activist. I have a sibling, my sister, she's also a non-believer, but she's not an activist.

I became an activist because I… there was a reason for that. I still remember I was 15 years old or something like that, we had a neighbour. I never met this lady. She was much senior to me,, but she was the sprint queen of Kerala where I was living at that time. He was a runner, a hundred meters running. She was there, she had a record. And she was almost like a celebrity, a young celebrity in our town. She got a kind of blood cancer, which needed a blood transfusion. Her family believed in a kind of Christian sect that refused blood transfusion of any kind because that was a sin.

Abhijit: Oh, yes.

Sanal Edamaruku: They could not get it. And that was a big news at that time. She wanted a blood transfusion. The doctors insisted that they could extend her life for another at least 30 years if that was possible. And later bone marrow or something like that. But the family refused and she refused in the very beginning.

And finally, she succumbed without taking any medicine, without taking any blood transfusion, and she died. And that was the time I felt I should be active in fighting this kind of absurdity. I went to the Rationalist Association's office. My father was one of the pioneers of the rational movement in Kerala.

I said, I wanted a membership and I became active as a student. I still remember the District Secretary of the association, my father's friend, who said the problem is you are only 15 years old. The organization's rule says I should be 18 years old to become a member. That is how the organization is structured because adults who can decide for themselves should become part of the organization because they have been the Rationalist Association has been insisting on the stopping of indoctrination on children.

So people should be adults when they make real decisions about their life. So I suggested one thing, shall I go for a student organization instead? So that's your freedom. You can do it. Talked to some friends, and we started a rational student movement along with seven or eight friends. And then it got a lot of support in several schools and colleges, it got branches and we started debunking things that would impress children, it's a very active student movement that went very well for many more years. And later I became a member of the association and I became an activist almost that time.

From a very young age. I am active in this movement. And over the years I was passionate about this movement. I joined a kind of diplomatic organization when I was at the university. At a very young age, I became a research officer in the Afro-Asian Rural Development Organization. But my inner call was to do something for rationalism and free thought and scepticism and all. And, after one year, I decided to quit the job. I sent my resignation in and I started a publication house for the promotion of scientific thinking. And I started writing. And around that time I got elected as the Secretary General of the Indian Rationalist Association. I became the youngest-ever general secretary of the organization. Before that I was in the Daily State Committee and all, wow. That became part of my life.

Abhijit: Wonderful. And what is it that you are doing now? Are you still continuing with your teaching and

Sanal Edamaruku: No more, I'm no more teaching, but I give uh, lecture connected with rationalism. I mean I e every week I have I think three or four Zoom meetings wherein a lot of people are attending from all across the world.

And yeah, I still continue, in a way, teaching, but mainly confine to responding to issues that are around free thinking and Rationable and critical inquiry.

Abhijit: That's the dream. That's what even I've been trying to get into. I have gotten into it now, but hearing your story, makes me think what was I doing at the age of 15?

Because I finally started thinking more critically at around the age of 30 I think it was, where I suddenly started figuring out that this world is filled with misinformation and I've been believing in it wholeheartedly for most of my life. And it's about time I did something about it and started figuring out my own brain and then eventually figured out, to help other people come out of their irrational thinking as well.

Sanal Edamaruku: But I hear the kind of spirit that you have. My daughter, who was a head of digital diplomacy at the British High Commission in New Delhi; was a television journalist and eventually, she moved to the British High Commission recently. She was telling me about quitting her job and joining full-time in my work. I was not discouraging her.

Abhijit: I wouldn't think you would, obviously, but it can be like, see the current situation in India is making it so that even my family are quite concerned about the things that I talk about on my podcast and in the interviews. Because even if I mention the government or the Prime Minister or anything of that sort, there is a tendency for people to get very agitated.

There is a, there is an entire, there's a climate of discomfort and apprehension and even fear that somebody is going to get arrested or made to disappear because speaking out against the government is now Taboo pretty much. But there has been a new group of young rationalists and science communicators who have started coming out on YouTube and on, podcasts who are starting to actively talk about not only the political situation, but also about, alternative medicines, which is something that has taken off over recent years and has been steadily growing, but tremendously promoted during the covid pandemic because of the ministry of AYUSH.

So there are a bunch of us who are starting to rise up and take notice and are getting a lot of heat for it from some quarters. Like especially there's a doctor who goes by the liver doc on Twitter Dr Abby Phillips, who is a biliary specialist. He's a biliary researcher and he has been talking against Ayurveda for quite a while now.

And the hate that it has gotten him, fortunately, nothing threatening to his life, it's only in the form of things like YouTube comments and social media criticism. Because I think most of the activists or anti-science activists these days are probably mostly residing in social media and they're more armchair activists of that sort.

So that is definitely an unfortunate thing.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah. But on the other side, I would not see that this is an armchair for using social media cause that's one of the most powerful mediums that we have.

Abhijit: Absolutely. Coming to that.

Sanal Edamaruku: What I, for example, when we started speaking about not only Ayurveda, homoeopathy and all this we have a lot of all these fake medical claims like pranic healing and this and that.

We have a lot of things in India.

Abhijit: Yeah.

Sanal Edamaruku: You have, you know about that. So I once had an encounter with the person on my television program who claimed that he had special powers with reiki, another healing system, and he could gain a lot of power with that. I brought in, I was the, I was a resource person for the National Science Center in Delhi and I were a lot of young students studying there and my students. I brought some of these students into the television studio and tried to replicate everything that he claimed that he would do, like bending a spoon with power. Children are shown how it is done and or lifting a person with fingers. He said, Reiki power. He said, come on, this is pure physics. And the young children of 12 or 13 years, they would replicate the whole thing.

That's still on YouTube. Again, when we speak about Ayurveda, back in the 1980s, when we started speaking about Ayurveda, even Rationalists did not take it very kindly at the beginning. There was a climate in India that what many people understood by Rationalism earlier was speaking against religious intolerance, absurdities in the faith and all. But going beyond that, I mean going into the alternative medicines or other, paranormal claims or any other things like astrology or, all these kinds of things, astrology on the television, again, we challenged so powerfully at one time.

There was even, I mean that that outcome, but when we spoke about Ayurveda and homoeopathy, there were so many heated attacks coming against me. For example sometime back when there was a decision by the government of India that AYUSH doctors; Ayush is the Ayurveda, homoeopathy, Unani and all this kind of system, which is promoted officially by the government, by the ministry.

Abhijit: Yes, exactly.

Sanal Edamaruku: So all of them are going to get a license to practice medicine and I made a very powerful campaign against that. And I got hate mail more than when I speak about religious bigotry.

Abhijit: Oh my

Sanal Edamaruku: how would they become intolerant? You cannot imagine.

Abhijit: Oh, I can, because the very first time I criticized, I didn't even criticize homoeopathy. When I was just starting out thinking more critically, I saw videos by Richard Dawkins and James Randi who talked about homoeopathy. There's that very famous Ted Talk by James Randi. I don't know if it was technically a TED Talk, but it was definitely a lecture that he was giving where he has

Sanal Edamaruku: saw there was a test by BBC.

Somebody claimed that homoeopathy could be proved, and BBC organized it with the four episodes that were tested. Double blinding test. And that's all on the YouTube. You can get it. James Randi was the initiator of that.

Abhijit: And he was he also kind of led the charge when it came to this. There was a French scientist who was doing research on water having memory when it came to certain immune cells. And it was published in Nature, I think it was and James Randi was the one who basically, tried to replicate those findings and definitely found a lot of flaws and exposed that experiment essentially. So, he but when I watched this talk of his, where he just takes a whole handful of homoeopathic sleeping pills.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah.

Abhijit: Then proceeded to give the entire lecture. And then I think there was an excerpt from Richard Dawkins's documentary where he explains homoeopathy. And I've been taking homoeopathy for most of my life. So when I watched that, I was like, Richard Dawkins is otherwise a reliable source. And if, and it, what he's saying does seem to make sense and I then kind of verified it from a few other websites and then I put it up on Facebook and I was not expecting the reaction I got. It was all, there were friends of mine who said,, I simply had put up a post saying, listen, this all you fans of homoeopathy, I think you should watch this video because there's some information here that you'd find very interesting. And they, I don't remember my exact wording. It might have been a little bit different from that, but the response I got was that I was calling everybody stupid for believing in homoeopathy and that it worked and that, there were lots of dis different discussions about, it working with my pets and it worked with my children and this infant and worked in my family and on myself, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And I was kind of shocked. And later on, I published the James Randy video, and I got a very similar reaction to that. So then I started realizing that the belief in homoeopathy and in alternative medicine, almost takes on a religious fervour because I think. After all, it's something that we have all grown up with because we, most Indian children and maybe a lot of children across the world, especially you know, in Europe and England, who have been brought up with these medicines and told that they work and had that confirmation, repeated again and again.

They would obviously, it becomes like a childhood indoctrination. So there's that religion, it becomes a part of their identity that this is, that this works and this is a cure-all for everything that ails us. And therefore, if you don't believe in it, you are this weird heretic. You should be shunned.

So, I totally get what you're talking about.

Sanal Edamaruku: I'll tell you another example, one of the former chairpersons of the Indian Nationalist Association, Dr PM Bhargava. He was a very reputed molecular scientist and one of the top scientists in India.

And he spoke in a public meeting about the absurdity of homoeopathy. He was cornered by some 25 homoeopaths and physically pushed and pulled and physically abused. Such a reputed scientist. He was something like 75 years or 77 years old. And this, it's like religious intolerant fanatics would attack a person with reason he was physically pulled and put and attacked.

And you have to escape from the place with police support. Imagine that.

Abhijit: Geez. And yeah, so this is. Apparently a very dangerous profession.

Sanal Edamaruku: But interestingly why in India homoeopathy is so important. Many people think that it's an Indian system. Even though there are homeo colleges in India, only in Kerala.

There are four homeo colleges in Kerala. They call it Homeo Medical College. And every year they're churning out 600 graduates, medical graduates from the homeo colleges and the homeo colleges. There is a homeo department in every state government, every state government has a department and the central government has a ministry for, homoeopathy in charge, but the homeo colleges are turning out people in four-year courses. Every year. 600 people are coming out as professional homepaths and many of them, it's a profession for them. And they have to defend it because they're defending their profession.

Abhijit: Exactly. Like, Dr Shantanu Abhyankar, who was one of the first people I ever interviewed for this podcast, I met him at CSICon in 2018, actually. I met him and his family. So he had actually studied homoeopathy because it seemed like, because apparently, it's like a back door into the medical profession in India, because at least once you've gone through that, you have some basic training and standards of care, and you can, you can join at more junior positions in a hospital and become like assistants, et cetera.

But after he'd gone through that, he realized what a load of bunk it was. He went back, studied again, reapplied to medical school, and finally graduated seven years later as an MD.

Sanal Edamaruku: Good, good that you told that story. I have a similar story back in Kerala when we started the Rationalist Student Movement, you said later when I became the National General Secretary of the Indian Rationalist Association, we continued with the Rationalist Student Movement and one of the activists who came was the Union Chairman of the homeo Medical College in Trivandrum. So when I heard about his academic background that he's a university chairman in the college, we had a long discussion and finally he was very convinced about the whole thing and it was a very pleasant surprise that he quit his course.

He didn't want, he was in his third year in the homeo medical college. Right. He was a union chairman of the college and he quit his education from there, wrote the entrance for the modern medical system, modern medic, M B S. And he got in and he became a medical doctor later.

Abhijit: Wow.

Sanal Edamaruku: That's a very big success story and

Abhijit: Yes, absolutely.

And there are others as well who have been, who have now been speaking out and speaking against alternative medicine. So I feel that, and the fortunate thing is that there is a new generation of rationalists who are kind of growing in numbers and in interest, especially on social media. We feel that it's almost like a tidal wave, that there's nothing that we can do to fight it.

Sanal Edamaruku: It is a tidal wave, in almost all languages. If you see the Hindi scene or Bengali scene, there are groups and groups which run on social media, for example, with posts getting something like 40, or 50,000 viewers in a week or so. Yeah these are the kind of, that's one thing I do, when I have these lectures, normally on the, on, on zoom, after that these things are recorded and put on social media and for example, about Ramzan fasting, for example, one I have done last week that the medical claims that these people would make, I said, come on, I mean dehydration without taking water is one of the biggest dangers that you're going to do with your health

Abhijit: Absolutely.

Sanal Edamaruku: Because you can you can fast for two or three days or intermittent fasting, that's a different thing. But stopping drinking water is dangerous to your health. And it's, no, nobody would address that. Nobody who understands anatomy would under, so this was very, it was not attacking them, but explaining them.

But I found sure that in English and Malayalam, it was there. And on my Facebook page, I found four days later, 50,000 views. It's amazing. And Malayalam, yes. Around something like 45,000 people. I've talked to a small group of 80 people online, but now in a week, I'm actually communicating to a hundred thousand people in a week.

Abhijit: Wow.

Sanal Edamaruku: That's the kind of outreach in social media.

Abhijit: Yes, absolutely. It's fantastic and it, of course, goes both ways. It can be both used for harm and for good, but

Sanal Edamaruku: Oh, that's true. On the other side, social media is full of absurdities stupidities and baseless claims that are in circulation. The WhatsApp University is churning out a lot of absurd things and to fight against that is also an important thing.

Abhijit: Absolutely. I was trying to do that when Covid when during the lockdown or the first lockdown and I was saturated, I was like, I didn't know where to turn because there was so much nonsense coming out. And so much of it was generated by the Ministry of Ayush and coming out in the newspapers and in leaflets and in social media posts on one side, they're debunking some genuinely fake cure. And on the other side, they're promoting their own fake cure. How do they justify that? Where is the line that they draw it? It's very hard to kind of get one's head around, but what, of course, it must be, it's not easy from Finland to be able to gauge the situation in India, but I'm sure you've been keeping in touch and seeing how things are going.

So what do you

Sanal Edamaruku: In. Yeah, of course. I'm, on a day-to-day basis, going back to the end here moment in India.

Abhijit: So from your perspective how do you think the current situation of religious fanaticism and also pseudoscience, how is that, how is India doing at this point in time from your perspective?

Sanal Edamaruku: Pseudoscience has been, in different forms, it has existed yearly also so I've got new currency with social media taking it forward and spreading it very fast. But for example, astrology tries to get, they tried to make pseudo-scientific claims about its voracity, for example.

Homeopathy tries to do the same thing. Every, any, anything that we have, they have a, they need a sanction or a scientific tag for that. Like Ramzan for example. Ramzan is fasting just because of religious reasons, but they want a sci scientific tag for it. It's good for your health, scientifically proven.

So this scientific tag is what everybody is seeking now. So this is the most dangerous thing, pseudoscience gets more and more, propagated because everybody's seeking a kind of scientific tag. So they want to make scientific, scientific-looking words and credibility and all this.

Yeah. And to try to establish credibility. That's something we have to systematically fight continuously. On the other side, for the first time ever, now India has a national-level ministry for promoting all these unsubstantiated medical systems.

Abhijit: Exactly. Almost everything is in one go.

Sanal Edamaruku: From Ayurveda to Siddha, almost all these kinds of things are packed into something and that's officially promoted. Funds are allotted to state governments to promote that. And that is something officially promoting superstition. Earlier, as astrology was brought as a subject in universities and 23 universities astrology is still a subject to study. And these all are things to be fought continuously.

There is no other way than fighting it out and exposing it and bringing the scientific community, and more and more people who understand science, more than only scientists, but the public understanding of science has to grow and scientific literacy has to grow and get more and more people engaged in the process of, rectifying and correcting. That's a process which we have to continue for several more decades to come. It's a continuous process.

Abhijit: Absolutely. It's like the hydra, you cut off one head–

Sanal Edamaruku: exactly. Another head will come up and another head come up at the same time. It's like a Sisyphus work sometimes one would feel, but it is not. I mean that if you don't do that, imagine then what would be the situation with all this effort that we all are putting, you are doing there. And everybody's, a lot of people, thousands of people are actively contributing to the process of scientific communication and I mean spreading reason.

But still, we know how hard it is. But imagine if we are not there and what would be the tide otherwise.

Abhijit: Exactly.

Sanal Edamaruku: So this is an important work that we are doing, and it's a message that everybody should take very seriously, that a part of their time, even if they're in any other profession if they're convinced that this is to be addressed properly at least an hour if they can. I mean since social media is very powerful, I would suggest that instead of, of course, there's, it's like a monster coming, a lot of absurdities, but we have to fight it out. We have to encourage more and more people to use at least a little time on social media to use sensible language to address these things and reach out to people.

Abhijit: Absolutely.

Sanal Edamaruku: That's a big, it's a challenge and a big opportunity also.

Abhijit: Indeed. So what kind of, advice would you give to this new generation of sceptic activists or atheist activists who are now getting on social media and starting this conversation? What would be the advice that you would give to them?

Sanal Edamaruku: Recently I had a meeting with young activists, in India, who are on social media. Some 300 people are attending that. As I suggested the only thing, is whatever profession you are, many of them are active for some time. Then they get into some profession. And they, they have, they attain and gain a lot of experience.

They study a lot of things, but that's in a way dormant when they get into professions and later move away. But that's the most important thing that I suggest. Young people, especially in the universities and in search of professions at this moment, if they're active now when they're going into professions, when they're going into the real challenges of life, don't get absorbed into that.

Spend a little time every day to continue what they have been doing because this has to be taken forward. It should not end up like a youth, an enthusiasm in your youth, but it should continue over the years and that would encourage a lot of young people, again, to come up and, sell the big campaign, which would finally tie this away.

Abhijit: Absolutely. I totally agree with you. And a lot of the content that you create these days is in Malayalam, I assume?

Sanal Edamaruku: No, Malayalam is, that's my mother tongue. So, there's a huge audience waiting for me in Malayalam. There's a huge pressure to respond to issues in Malayalam, of course, I produce at least two or three pieces in English also every week.

Every week. Okay. But maybe 10 pieces in Malayalam parallelly. Cause I, I spent really a lot of time communicating with people, and we are running, three or four websites. There is a new application app we made, Rationalist, that's downloadable on both Android as well as for iOS systems.

And thereby we are trying to connect all people all across, and every event that we are making is hybrid now. Because PE people have studied a lot to use the social media. For example, eighth we have a conference here in Helsinki, but it's a hybrid conference. We are expecting some people to attend here.

But expecting some thousand people to attend from across the world. This is how we are doing. So we, but what we generally tell all these young people who are in the movement to get more and more people active, but also to use civilised language, that's very important. Social media has a trend to use.

For example, trolling. Trolling sometimes can coil back. Trolling is making a joke only. You know, you Yeah, you make a joke. It may be good initially, but if you continue trolling only, that doesn't give anything productive. Instead, you should use small units of communication. Which can explain things. That would be more, it'll have more outreach. That doesn't mean that we should stop trolling, but trolling this way and that way and using harsh language is not the way, it's not to touch people, but to explain them. Helping them to open up and come out. That's what we should do. What I feel is that back in 1995, I had a trip to India. For 18 months we have been on the roads starting from Kanya Kumari to New Delhi. And we travelled with 18 people and talked in small meetings, 200 people in little meetings, and every day maybe 20 meetings. And that is what the BBC has made a documentary report. It's available online at Guru Busters.

Abhijit: Oh, yes. I've got Guru Busters.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yes. And you can see a young me at that time, I mean speaking in meetings and going on, but on that trip, in 18 months, we could talk very proudly, we thought, I could talk to a million people in 18 months, but now I talk to a million people every week. That became possible. That became possible because social media has opened up new avenues and I encourage a lot of people, the team that I have, I'm not doing it all alone. I have people supporting me from different parts.

Somebody is sitting in London, somebody is sitting in New Delhi, and all these people are together. We all are collectively doing, there is a team of something like 22 people in this production team that we have. And we are continuously producing stuff and producing new tools like, like the app we developed.

And we are going to have apps in different Indian languages. This is the Rationalist app, but soon coming in Hindi, in Bangla, these are the two languages we are thinking of immediately to also, to make it in French and German. So this is, these are the kinds of things we are planning now.

And a youth camp is planned for this summer. To encourage the European youth. That's another interesting point. In Europe, many people think that we all have become scientific, and there's nothing to be done. But instead, the reality is that all these pseudosciences are coming in a big wave in different places.

In Norway we have somebody in the royal family different, speaking about going to,, she was married to a shaman and who would do magic and all these kinds of things are getting even in, in Nordic countries. So how many people would share, and believe in God? People would say a very low number of people. But how many people would believe in angels? The number will go up because new superstitions emerge, new kinds of images emerge and we have to keep on continuously, developing the critical mindset, promoting instead of explaining these things, what we require is getting the critical mindset.

That's the most important thing. That's where we have to focus. That's what the youth camp which we are planning also is, targeting.

Abhijit: Yeah, because when I was coming back from this last trip to, from CSICon and FFRF F I was sitting next to a European lady, I don't remember where she was from, maybe Germany.

But then I mentioned, what we were doing and the kind of things we were thinking about and talking about at the conferences. And, I, just spoke about it in passing. And from then on, the entire conversation started evolving around all the things that she believed that, that you know about ketogenic diets, about homoeopathy, about all sorts of things.

Then I was like wow. Like Europe. I said, do a lot of your friends do this as well? She's like, yeah, they, this lady, this friend of mine is doing a juice fast and this lady is doing a water fast. And I'm like, oh my God. Even Europe has gotten into this.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yes, there are a lot of superstitions around, but that doesn't mean that it has gone completely, in a crazy direction.

But there are tendencies. Yes. If you look at the people who are going into. Astrology is still very popular in Europe. Even in Baltic countries where religion almost doesn’t exist, the number of people believing in astrology is something like 8 to 9%.

Abhijit: Wow.

Sanal Edamaruku: In Finland, there was a channel television channel for astrology, a private television channel, because there was freedom of expression.

And if, people can say without any control. So there was an astrology channel without astrology claiming very absurd things, but somehow if there was an interference that channel was closed out last year.

Abhijit: Thank goodness. But nobody is immune to it.

And we are all subjected to the same kind of influences from social media and there's so much pseudoscience being promoted in health, and so many other fields nowadays that, even grounding, walking barefoot across the earth to be able to heal yourself of all sorts of things.

So we are all doing our part to fight that. So the people who are watching here who would probably be interested in becoming a part of your organization, of your movement, where can they find you? Where can they attend the meetings, et cetera, et

cetera?

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah. The best way, the easiest way to connect would be to download the app. Then, you get all the information and it's a free app. There is no cost to download it and use it. And there is no advertisement also. It's absolutely free of cost. The app is a Rationalist, it's a blue-coloured square with the white letters Rationalist.

 That's available on both the systems and download it. And then one gets all updates and information, not only the rationalist internationalist events. What we try to do is beyond an organization, we try to promote the whole movement, and we also try not to limit to, we have several brands some people would like to call themselves atheists, and some people want to call them rationalists. Some people, oh, all historic reasons. Some people want to call them humanists are different names. But at the end of the day, this is only some difference in distrust. It's all the same. We all are on one side of defence on the scientific side, so we try to absorb the whole thing. So any event anybody wants to report about it or announce it, that's all published free of cost in this app.

So we try to become a carrier of not only our work but everybody in the field. Should be able to, use this facility, which we developed over the years. We took one whole year to develop this app, but it's available for everybody. Just use it, download it, use it, and get information not only about us and our work but also about other people's work who are in the field.

Abhijit: Wonderful. I am definitely downloading it and I'll put the links in the description as usual. But also Richard Saunders from the Australian Skeptics community.

Sanal Edamaruku: He's one of the honorary associates of the International

Abhijit: Oh, wonderful.

Because I had him on the show. I've been on his podcast as well several times, and he's the one who told me about Guru Busters.

This was before I even heard about you. So I watched Guru Busters. There's only apparently there I've tried looking for it on YouTube. There are only segments, like short segments, which Mr. Eagle has published. In fact, I even emailed Mr. Eagle and said, please, we need to have it out in the open. We need to have easy access to it. Can you tell BBC to put it up somewhere to be able to, watch it on streaming or something of that sort? He said we are not doing it anymore, but if you want, here's a link. You can order DVDs and then, whatever.

Sanal Edamaruku: Eagle and Eagle is providing the DVDs of it, yeah.

Abhijit: So, which is which I've already got the unfortunately pirated version, but I will buy the DVDs for sure. And I think, like I, we honestly, we should do a show like that now because I, my appeal to Mr Eagle was that in India, we need this now more than ever because even though it was a fantastic show, and it's still relevant today, but having something which has a more, current vibe to it, which the youth can connect to, at Places where the youth are familiar with and with people who they're familiar with, like Sadhguru and these kinds of personalities.

Sanal Edamaruku: Robert Eagle has retired from television production. He's now handling paintings and he's a collector of paintings and he's a major person in the London painting scene now.

Abhijit: I see.

Sanal Edamaruku: But he's a, together with Robert Eagle, he's a very close personal friend of mine. I mean, The person who asked me to come to London at that time and stay at his home as Robert Eagle only, a very great friend together, we established a small company in London to, expand our activities in London also. He and I together founded a small company to promote literature based in London, which also would start publishing a lot of new books.

Abhijit: Ah, wonderful. I hope, I hope we can do this and Buster Stew or something like that, because we need it. We, if we work together, maybe we can cook up some ideas at some point in time.

Sanal Edamaruku: Yeah. That's something we have to go more and more into the production that would reach people without actually physically people going and speaking. Right. Using all the possible media possibilities or visual possibilities that are opened up now we have to use it more production and more outreach.

That's the way.

Abhijit: Exactly. And all of us have to pull together and do our own bit and use

Sanal Edamaruku: Absolutely

Abhijit: our resources to be able to get that message across. Thank you so much, Sanal, for coming on to Rationable Interviews. It has been absolutely de delightful and it's been fascinating hearing your story and also kind of scary.

So I don't,

Sanal Edamaruku: it is nothing to be, of course, if I wanted to, stop things and I wanted to live a peaceful life, there were a lot of opportunities for me. I desired a very clear path and I'm not regretful about that. I'm very confident that I might have taken the correct lines all day. There was one, another small thing. I mean, in 2014 my mother was ill and she was dying. I mean, I was very close with my mother and my father died some years back she was connected to me so closely and we had been talking regularly. She was in hospital with pneumonia and she was going down, she was 80 plus.

And the doctors said my friends were there, that she may not survive long. So I was informed. So I thought somehow I should go and meet her. That was my feeling, and hold her hand and said goodbye. And I talked to somebody in the Catholic church in Mumbai.

Since I studied political science and international relations, I thought of a kind of truce for some days. A white flag. For some days don't trouble me. I'm going to come to India. But I would be seeing my mother and returning back. But don't make any trouble when I'm in India. Don't try to send people against me. But this should be a gentleman's agreement because my mother is dying. This is the message I sent to them, through a trusted friend inside. I was told that the Archbishop of Mumbai would respond to me. The Archbishop earlier wrote publicly on his website that I should apologize. The whole trouble will be over. I should apologize only, I said, bring all the torture machines from medieval times, but you don't get my apology. That is what I replied at the time, right here again. He said, and the person in the church informed me that we don't want to make any trouble for you. We are very kind about these kinds of situations, we will stop all trouble that we officially make, they say that they didn't make any trouble but here they say that they would stop everything, all cases and everything will be withdrawn. But I should make a private apology to the church.

Abhijit: Oh,

Sanal Edamaruku: and what was my I told my sister about this. And my sister communicated this to the mother, and the mother told her, do you think he would apologize and come to see me? She asked my sister. My sister said I do not know he loves you so much. I don't know. But I don't think he should do it.

He will not do it. but if he apologizes for seeing me, and if he comes for that, don't open the door for him. Close it for him.

Abhijit: Oh my goodness. That, that is, that's fantastic.

Sanal Edamaruku: And two, two days later, she dies. I didn't apologize, of course. I immediately said that I didn't want to see my mother with your mercy. And I don't, I would never apologize because I have not done anything wrong. I would keep on saying it repeatedly till my last breath.

Abhijit: That is so inspiring and so powerful. I can't even begin to imagine that kind of, you've, you have made a very stern stuff, sir. Let me tell you. And you're an inspiration for us all and especially for the new generation of sceptics in this country.

Thank you so much for being here. I'm sure we'll have you at another time. And thank you so much for giving your time. I. Give us all your blessings

Sanal Edamaruku: pardon?

Abhijit: Give us all your blessings.

Sanal Edamaruku: Come on. But wonderful that you're doing this work. What you are doing, I connecting the younger people in the moment together, and using social media is something really appreciable.

And I really appreciate your effort. Thank you very much,

Abhijit: so much. And I'm trying to connect people from all around the world. So with my connections at CSICon, with my connections with Richard Saunders and I had dinner with Richard Dawkins and met Neil DeGrasse Tyson. So I've, having gone to that extent, I want to make scepticism something that is not just a US thing or an Indian thing or it's isolated in different countries, but I want to be able to connect everybody together to kind of have a collective mind towards having civil discussions towards reason.

So, thank you very much. This has been, Thoroughly enlightening and very fascinating, and I am so honoured to be able to speak to you and you're an inspiration to us all. Thank you so much.

Sanal Edamaruku: Thank you. And nice meeting you. We'll meet again.

Abhijit: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. And if I ever come down to Finland, I'm definitely dropping in.

 

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